Curse

Mister_Smiley · Apr 17, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Nice post MSecorsky, i have to agree..

twicky_kid · Apr 17, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

This is all about the time spent playing the game. I have hit over 2000 hours on prophicies so I feel I got way more than my $50 in value.

The same will go for factions. You will get your $50 value out of the game. Its still free to play. If you want to put it down for a while then come back you may do so.

Unlike other games if you want to come back you have to pay that monthly fee.

MONEY IS ALWAYS THE BOTTOM LINE.

Str0b0 · Apr 17, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

I agree...
The play styles of ritualist and Assassins are completely different, never seen any of the assassin combos in other professions. Those spirits rit can make, you've seen them? I haven't.

Actually he does have a somewhat valid point. Combos aren't new they just made the assassin combos a little easier for people to piece together. Sever Artery+Gash+Final Thrust anyone? Yeah it's a combo. All they did as add mandatory things for each step. At the same time though it is what it is. The genre itself doesn't allow for any real innovation in the way things work. You can add tweaks here and there to make the same mechanics more interesting but in the end all MMORPG type games work the same way. Find monster, Target monster kill monster with whatever weapon\spell you have on hand. I've already pre ordered it. I have some concerns. We'll see how those pan out in the weeks after the release.

sdliddo · Apr 17, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Hmm.. am i getting screwed over buying GWF for $50.
Answer in my own honest opinion about it is a big resounding NO.
Reason: i play the game online for free 24/7 anytime anyday. I can quit if i want to and wait a few months and play again without having that $10-$20 per month online game fee hanging above my head like an axe.

I can have a life and play with people who obviously like playing not to mention knowing full well that the game isnt about people with the best superweapons and armor there is to buy.

GW introduces that kind of game. Monsters are more powerful than us and likely doubt anyone can take on the entire game by themselves. GW is unique and likely to stay that way.

Bottomline is i got no money to pay that damned online fee. Heck i get enough of that paying for my DSL. GW is fun and likely so is WOW or other online games out there.

Take your pick people. There are XXX million people out there... they got a choice. You do too. Me, i'll buy the game and play it and have fun.

Fun should be free... at least when playing a game anyway. I shouldn't have to worry about paying anyone more than what i paid for just to play online.

I mean even at $10... i will be paying like $120 usd every year? gah.

Tell me when $50 unlimited time play isnt any better than $120 every year to play?

rollntider · Apr 17, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

id say everyone but one I talked to said they would get factions, i even gave a friend a beta key he just bought prophecies and about to get factions. I have another friend that recently got it. The one person I know that plays GW currently isnt getting GW:F is becuase he likes WOW better. He likes to fish and skin for leather, make armor. Thats his thing. He doesnt like being restricted to 8 skills ( Ido wish we had at least 10 myself, but thats another debate for another time) But bottom line is he likes the froo froo. I like some of the froo froo, like the pumpkin heads and such. But he doesnt want it, so be it.

Mainly I see people are mad because what they want won't be in the game so they are slamming Anet, which reminds me of the guy that keeps calling into the talk show claiming he will never listen again to this garbage only to call int he next day to complain again and threaten to never come back.

I am not 100% happy with everything about GW, i wished there was an in game mail system and auction house ala WOW style (that would make this game 90% better) but I am still happy with it over all and more than sastified with factions.

mm00re · Apr 17, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

if they want to sit it out fine, let them, tell them to PLEASE do.

it's one less whiner sitting in town spamming "RAGE QUITTER LFG!!!"

I am almost at 2k hours now and played since beta, I can always find something to do.

I have looked at wow, eq, elder scrolls, blah

WasAGuest · Apr 17, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

While it is about the money to a good extent, it's also about the available content and execution of the game itself.

New Content: There's almost nothing new here. Advertised as having new dynamic content and new mission types. None of this is completely true, and, as all marketing teams must do to some extent, flavor it up some.
I've said this before, but it fits here again to some degree: Challenge and Competitive Missions are PvP missions though they are listed under PvE in the Factions FAQ. This is important to know because for that $50 there is considerably less missions and additions to those of us that do not wish to play a competitive game.
Exectution of the game: In the past several weeks, I've posted much less and read more posts on all topics. One topic of note is that PvPers are needing UAX/UAS to remain competitive faster - thus removing the "grind" from the game. Arguments range from one extreme to the other, but the ones that make the most since with Factinos coming out is "How is my alliance going to fare against hardcore players that have UAX and UAS?" It seems those weapon mods and all those skills actually do make a difference. Other players in those same threads say then just go play PvE and unlock them faster. Those players "asking" (not whining) for a way to remain competitive are told to go play something they don't enjoy.

On the same concept for the PvE side of things we have the infamous Favor and City control issue. Those Elite missions and end game content that PvEers enjoy (for farming or for the actual quests - though thin they may be) are literally locked off unless PvP wins or losses. Factions added Fed-Ex style quests to farm points, but how many times is that going to be "fun"? The players asking (not whining) for PvE content to be unlinked from PvP wins/losses are told to go play PvP, something they don't enjoy doing.
There are other examples as well and the list can go on and on.

Just these two examples show that not everyone will feel they got their money worth with Factions. Add in the infamous "slot" issues and the "cosmetic" changing and there are that many more. As a side note, do either of these last two have any direct impact on those who don't care? No. But, for those that it does matter, it takes away from their game.

So yea, money and game design are what keep me from it. If I can find it for $10 somewhere, then again, yea I might pick it up as I feel it's worth about that much to me. Chapter 1 was worth about $100 or more though.

Thanks for the compliment Mordakai, you changed your avatar and completely threw me off - I'm bringing steaks for broiling as I'm soon to be flammed again (though why I always seem to get flammed is still beyond me sometimes)... want one?

Edit: Last thought: One thing to also keep in mind (everyone - competitive and non), is a major "good point" in GW, is that you don't have to have each chapter to stay "competitive" or have all the good stuff. My skipping Factions isn't going to hurt me come Chapter 3 (if I get that one).
So the gotta have each Chapter way of thinking isn't here, which I think is nice.

CKaz · Apr 17, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amok

I think a major factor is that people are getting sick of it. When you play the same game for a while the novelty begins to fade. I've experienced this with every game I have played, and expansions/updates/new chapters are just not the same as a brand new game.

And then you'll want the skills from chp1 on your chp2 character... so that'll be fun, lets go redo those prophecy missions for the upteenth time!

And no, I don't know that's how it will work, but it sounds like they're going to pull back giving us skills for chp2 quest rewards let alone let those of us linking up earn quests from skills through chp2 rewards...

Quite frankly that makes me think getting skills for characters not introduced that chapter from previous chapters, as the number of chapters grow, will get very very very old for those who liked variety in their PvE.

MSecorsky · Apr 17, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

While it is about the money to a good extent, it's also about the available content and execution of the game itself.

New Content: There's almost nothing new here. Advertised as having new dynamic content and new mission types. None of this is completely true, and, as all marketing teams must do to some extent, flavor it up some.
I've said this before, but it fits here again to some degree: Challenge and Competitive Missions are PvP missions though they are listed under PvE in the Factions FAQ. This is important to know because for that $50 there is considerably less missions and additions to those of us that do not wish to play a competitive game.

So we have a new continent/ new game, with new characters, missions, quests, skills, monsters, NPCs, PvP, PvE, etc., and you say no new content?

How exactly do you define "new content"? If you want a whole new paradigm, then you want a game other than Guild Wars. GW is based on a particular model that drives it. New content wraps around that model.

Seriously, what in the underworld are you talking about?

CKaz · Apr 17, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Sorry but you and 9 friends does not constitue "a lot of people", definitely not so much that ANet is losing sleep over it.
I consider it a Full Game, because it'll have as much content as...

a full game!
I will pay full price for a full game, so I will pay full price for Factions. Hell, I might even buy a second copy just to spite you.

It could be a lot of people though, couldn't it - I know I've been through a couple guilds closing doors, most of my IRL friends aren't continuing, and honestly I couldn't encourage a new player to get into it right now.

But if ANet can rely enough on you silly types that might continue to buy extra for spite it might not matter in the least

Ravious · Apr 17, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I just spent $20 buying PS2's God of War, I got about 6-7 hours out of it. Hopefully I will pick it up again. So, it cost me about $2.70 per hour of enjoyment, with little replayability.

I play WoW occasionally. When I buy a month it costs me $15, and I usually play about 4-6 hours a week when I have it on. So, ignoring the initial $50 price tag, it costs me about $0.75 per hour of enjoyment.

I bought GW:P CE for $70. I have played about 800 hours. It costs me less than $0.10 per hour of enjoyment. With tons of replayability, heck just logging on for holiday events is enough now.

So, for price nothing comes close, in my mind.

Another thing is quite a few old schoolers will be hanging back due to their own personal wars, I bet many will fold once they hear within their guild how cool the new stuff is, or how they are always in 12v12 or what not.

The greatest boon to GW's model is the players WITHIN the game talking up the other chapters.

Mordakai · Apr 17, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Meh. People leaving games is nothing new, happens all the time, in fact.

Actually, Guild Wars has a huge advantage over other MMORPGs - they do not need to keep the same people playing (and paying!) monthly like other MMORPGs.

They just need "x" amount of copies of each Chapter sold to meet their bottom line. All this speculation that Guild Wars is dying is just that.. idle speculation.

I will be very suprised if Anet doesn't meet it's numbers... and I, for one, will be happy if they exceed projected sales. They've delivered a superior game, and one I will continue to support. I'm very excited about Factions and the future of Guild Wars... and I'm not even a "leet" player!

WasAGuest - I changed my avatar for two reasons. One, someone else was using Conjure Phantasm, and Two, I wanted a Faction specific avatar. I like it better, and I hope others do, too.

Ctb · Apr 17, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I'm sitting it out at first. I want to see what others have to say about the elite content. If it's just (The Favor Problem)^2 I'll probably not buy unless the price dips to around $30.

I don't mind paying for new content, but I want to see how much of that new content I can actually get to without sniffing my own crotch for fun first....

WasAGuest · Apr 17, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

So we have a new continent/ new game, with new characters, missions, quests, skills, monsters, NPCs, PvP, PvE, etc., and you say no new content?

How exactly do you define "new content"? If you want a whole new paradigm, then you want a game other than Guild Wars. GW is based on a particular model that drives it. New content wraps around that model.

Seriously, what in the underworld are you talking about?

I was refering to the value of the "new" stuff, as in money combined with content.

Lets look at the monsters: Do they act any different from the Charr? No. They have different skills, but are still the exact same we have seen before, new models and skins don't make them different. I was looking for a change in AI behavior, assign an AI (different) to each type of mob. I bet if I use an AoE they will all flee even if I do no damage to them. I bet if I hit one with Empathy it keeps attacking... or Backfire for that matter, it will still cast. Some foes should be made smart enough to know not to "hurt" themselves, while others (more primative creatures) wouldn't have a clue as to why they are suddenly being hurt and no one is around hitting them with a pointed object. Add variety to the foes in AI, not just in looks. Would this still fit into paradigm? Yup.

Skills. Same with variations really. As was already said above about the combo set up. They are really just the same thing, only now with a pre-req on when it can be used. This is no fault of Anet here, they did such an awesome job on the first go round, it will be hard to come up with newer unique skills while maintaning the balance needed.

Areas: Areas with what to do? Fed-ex quests for farming points. Run here and there quests? I agree it looks pretty, really pretty, but with nothing to do there, why go? The areas I was looking for were those elite missions so I coul bring over my current level 20s and give them new challenges. Now we find that I either farm points all day, join in PvP (which I really do not enjoy) or stand around and wait till the elite area is open (again, not fun). So for me, since you asked me, it's not worth it. To you, it might be, but not to me. If anyone cares, I had listed several possible ideas (months ago now) on how to make areas and faction points more fun for PvE. It's a long lost thread now, but I can repeat it here... and yea, it still fits within the paradigm of the game.

That pretty much leaves me with really cool looking armor, some new weapons to look at (but are all really similar thanks to balancing needs) and PvP.

New PvP: I don't care in the least about this aspect of the game. Tried it, didn't like it for multiple reasons. Just, wasn't something I enjoyed, even though I was on a winning team. /shrug - this is a major determining factor of why I opt out of this one. It's just not for me, I don't enjoy it. One only has to look at the mentality of the player base to see why I wont bother. - Current Favor system is similar to the Elite Missions access. If log in and don't have access, I log off and play something else. When I ask (not whine) for a change, I get told to go "earn it" or "go play something else".
Well, if I waste my evening "earning it" then I have no time to go enjoy what I was after. So that's not a real option. Same with the Elite missions - casual gamer need not apply it seems.
The other option is to go "play something else" and now that I say that is what I am doing, the torches get lit and the raging hordes still come after me. lol

Edited: I also mainly don't enjoy the "rushed" feel of PvP or competition. I bring this up, cause some putz just walked in here and told me to hurry up with the report (I was done an hour ago) so he could turn it in on his way out to lunch... rush, rush, rush... /sigh

New weapons and armor: Well, not worth $50 for just that. I won't pay Bethesda $2 for horse armor, I'm sure not paying Anet $50 for "looks".

At least my steaks are getting well done.

And before some wise guy/gal says "This game is not for you then" - I happen to agree, the current direction it's going, it's not. Which is why I am skipping Factions but will wait for Chapter 3 and see what it brings.
I have a feeling, that after reading so many critical posts on so many different sites, that Anet may go into a different direction with Chapter 3... that and Jeff Strain says "each Chapter will have a distinct dynamic to it" - he even states that if you don't like one of the chapters, just wait six months and another will be available to you. Briliant business choice on a game that takes such "push the edge" design choices.

@ Mordakai - Aye, Female Ritualist.. can't go wrong there. /big grin - Just got used to seeing Phantasm and knew it was you. Read your post and had to double glance at your name.

I also agree, GW is not dying. Will they meet or exceed sales? Dunno. I would say they might. Since you don't need Chapter 1 to play Factions, it's even possible they sell more Factions then they did Chapter 1.

MelechRic · Apr 17, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Here's another game marketing method:

HL2 Silver: HL2, CounterStrike/CounterStrike Source, Day of Defeat/Day of Defeat Source, HL1/HL1 Source and a bunch of other games for $60. Yeah some of the games are old and crap, but I got loads of enjoyment out of HL2/Counterstrike Source and DoD source.

Now Valve is releasing the next chapter of the HL story and guess what? It's $20 and you get HL2 with it. **This is according to the latest PC Gamer.

Contrast this with GuildWar's marketing strategy... 2 new slots (if you merge) and full price either way.

I guess the MMO market is different from the FPS market.

WasAGuest · Apr 17, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

Another thing is quite a few old schoolers will be hanging back due to their own personal wars, I bet many will fold once they hear within their guild how cool the new stuff is, or how they are always in 12v12 or what not.

The greatest boon to GW's model is the players WITHIN the game talking up the other chapters.

Sorry for the double post.

Actually, after the FPE, I was the only one in my guild still thinking about getting Factions... I finally descided not to about a week or so ago. There's just too many reasons not to get it when your a casual gamer or within a relaxed play schedule.

If we could log in and know right away we could hit up FoW or UW or at least plan Monday to complete the quests there on Wednesday, we would probably be wonderfully happy. With Factions, the system is even less accessable unless you take part in the very time consuming point farming (gaining) for PvE or enjoy the PvP. So we could log in, farm like crazy and then in two days all that time was worth nothing. The system just isn't built with casual players in mind.
Casual and end game don't usually go hand in hand, I admit, but when you're done with everything else, the end game is what you tend to look at. And in seeing it blocked out, you see little there to do.
Also, 5 outta the 20 plus guildies instantly logged out of the FPE when they entered Jade Quarry and found the "Competitive Missions" to be PvP. They never returned for the rest of the FPE.
12vs12 has completely turned off several others in my guild as well - I was one of the few willing to give it a shot - and I still didn't like it at all.

There's just quite a few of us that do not like that style of play and therefore will not (did not) enjoy the Factions content. Not saying the game will fail, just responding to the topic at hand. Will it meet or exceed sales? Sitting out? To each his/her own.

One last note, and I'll leave it alone (yea I can hear the cheers... ) is "fun". We play the game for "fun". Competition is fun for some, other enjoy the co-op, social, farming (ugh, can't stand having to do that) or whatever they enjoy. In the end, it's what they find fun that matters. In Chapter 1 everyone could find something they enjoyed and were rarely limited in that.
With Factions merging so many facets, many people are seeing what they found "fun" being pushed aside for other dynamics. When they voice their concern, whether in question form or simple conversation, they are rebuffed and called "whiners", "tantrum throwers" and more. Most often this happens by those whose idea of "fun" wasn't altered or pushed aside. The final say is always (and I mean always) the same:

"Adapt and play" (what they don't enjoy).
"Go play something else."
"This game is not for you."

This is fine for the player base to say, but if Anet adopted this "sayings" they would loss many customers.
I don't think anyone here wants to see Anet fail, so let's keep that in mind when refering to another's post and opinions. If we are all able to work on "bending" ideas towards a better ame for us all, we could all enjoy the game that much more.

salaboB · Apr 17, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is all about the time spent playing the game. I have hit over 2000 hours on prophicies so I feel I got way more than my $50 in value.

The same will go for factions. You will get your $50 value out of the game. Its still free to play. If you want to put it down for a while then come back you may do so.

Prophecies: I got my money's worth, certainly.

Factions: I already played out PvE in Prophecies and don't have enough prophecies skills to PvP the way I want to (Meaning it would only get worse if I got Factions). Since the PvE will just be more of the same (ArenaNet has demonstrated no real talent for storyline, so I don't have that to look forward to. From the preview weekend I can say that all the enemy AIs are the same as they've always been...I'd get bored within a couple hours.) and the PvP will only become more inaccessable, I will not get my money's worth out of factions even though I did out of prophecies.

Mordakai · Apr 17, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Now Valve is releasing the next chapter of the HL story and guess what? It's $20 and you get HL2 with it. **This is according to the latest PC Gamer.

Contrast this with GuildWar's marketing strategy... 2 new slots (if you merge) and full price either way.

I guess the MMO market is different from the FPS market.

Well, yeah. A shooter does not require the continued expense that a MMORPG does, once you set up the game and servers, the game takes care of itself.

By their very nature, MMORPGs require constant updates (remember, we've been getting FREE updates for GW for a year now!). That's why most MMORPGs charge a monthly fee, while most shooters do not.

MSecorsky · Apr 17, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I was refering to the value of the "new" stuff, as in money combined with content.

Lets look at the monsters: Do they act any different from the Charr? No. They have different skills, but are still the exact same we have seen before, new models and skins don't make them different. I was looking for a change in AI behavior, assign an AI (different) to each type of mob. I bet if I use an AoE they will all flee even if I do no damage to them. I bet if I hit one with Empathy it keeps attacking... or Backfire for that matter, it will still cast. Some foes should be made smart enough to know not to "hurt" themselves, while others (more primative creatures) wouldn't have a clue as to why they are suddenly being hurt and no one is around hitting them with a pointed object. Add variety to the foes in AI, not just in looks. Would this still fit into paradigm? Yup.

Actually, new monsters using new skills. The AI has a base functionality, sure, but that doesn't mean it's not new content. New monsters, new challenges, yet the familiarity of Guild Wars.

Quote:

Skills. Same with variations really. As was already said above about the combo set up. They are really just the same thing, only now with a pre-req on when it can be used. This is no fault of Anet here, they did such an awesome job on the first go round, it will be hard to come up with newer unique skills while maintaning the balance needed.

Again... wrong. Many new skills, unique from Factions. Because you can use combinations in Prophecies doesn't mean Faction skills aren't new. Brand new builds will be coming from Factions. Look at Broad Head Arrow... there's a build based on that waiting to happen alone!

Quote:

Areas: Areas with what to do? Fed-ex quests for farming points. Run here and there quests? I agree it looks pretty, really pretty, but with nothing to do there, why go? The areas I was looking for were those elite missions so I coul bring over my current level 20s and give them new challenges. Now we find that I either farm points all day, join in PvP (which I really do not enjoy) or stand around and wait till the elite area is open (again, not fun). So for me, since you asked me, it's not worth it. To you, it might be, but not to me. If anyone cares, I had listed several possible ideas (months ago now) on how to make areas and faction points more fun for PvE. It's a long lost thread now, but I can repeat it here... and yea, it still fits within the paradigm of the game.

The elite areas are only a small portion of the game, and from what I've heard fully 80% of the new game is focused on level 20 players. There are hundreds of new quests and missions, new skills to cap, areas to explore... you really can't see the petrified forest for the trees.

Quote:

That pretty much leaves me with really cool looking armor, some new weapons to look at (but are all really similar thanks to balancing needs) and PvP.

And this is purely because of your own doing. You are being far too narrow-minded. All you need to do is take your favorite class, create a new character in Cantha and actually play the game. If you can't find anything new... well, you have earned my pity.

However, you have failed to convince or prove a point with such a seive-like argument.

MSecorsky · Apr 17, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by salaboB

Prophecies: I got my money's worth, certainly.

Factions: I already played out PvE in Prophecies and don't have enough prophecies skills to PvP the way I want to (Meaning it would only get worse if I got Factions). Since the PvE will just be more of the same (ArenaNet has demonstrated no real talent for storyline, so I don't have that to look forward to. From the preview weekend I can say that all the enemy AIs are the same as they've always been...I'd get bored within a couple hours.) and the PvP will only become more inaccessable, I will not get my money's worth out of factions even though I did out of prophecies.

PvP will be highly accessible, especially the 12 v 12! Even if they make it party of four requirements, it'll be easy to find three others that don't give a fried rats buttocks about flavor of the month builds and just want to play.

Fear not the accessibility of PvP!